Betatalks the podcast

In this episode, we talk to Dennie Declercq, a Microsoft MVP Developer Technologies. He is president and developer at DDSoft, a non-profit that connects IT with people who are less tech-savvy. Thanks to his autism, he is the right man to contribute as a volunteer in function of people with disabilities. We talk about the modern way of building websites with Azure Functions, Azure Static Web Apps and Blazor. And, how to build really affordable tech solutions that you can add into products for people with disabilities. Dennie also shares his own experiences with (non)inclusive and (un)accessible software. Moreover, we discuss how Blazor can help developers with autism because it reduces context switching. And about the future of accessibility with Blazor and Azure Cognitive Services. Furthermore, we also dive deeper into what the biggest misconceptions are about working in tech with a disability or being on the autism spectrum.

About this episode, and Dennie Declercq in particular: you can find @DennieDeclercq on Twitter, and on his GitHub. Check out his website or listen to his conference presentation about 'Intro to Blazing Web Accessibility - Empowered with AI'.

About Betatalks: have a look at our videos and join us on our Betatalks Discord channel

00:00 - Introduction
03:13 - Friend of the day
04:53 - What got Dennie most hyped last weeks
07:16 - Where does Dennie’s personal mission come from
16:54 - Becoming an Microsoft MVP
19:00 - Using Blazor because it reduces context switching
23:45 - Totally random question
26:50 - The invention of technical solutions to help people with disabilities
31:54 - The biggest misconception about being in tech with a disability
35:27 - Closing

Introduction – 00:00

Oscar 
Hey there. Welcome to Betatalks the podcast in which we talk to friends from the development community.

Rick 
I am Rick.

Oscar 
And I am Oscar.

Rick 
Oscar, what's up? What are you doing?

Oscar 
I had a busy week, actually. Actually, coding.

Rick 
Wow.

Oscar 
Wow.

Rick 
It's been a while, right?

Oscar 
Yeah, I was at a client. And I accidentally found out there were some packages, leaning on packages leaning on packages. You know how that stuff organically grows? We always say, yeah. So there was some legacy in there, I found out. It was depending on deprecated key vault, and it was depending on a deprecated storage package. But it was so far down the chain that really didn't notice it wasn't breaking yet. But, yeah, it was so many dependent packages that were like homebrew, for the company itself, fine, of course. But it was kind of invisible because of that. And what I ended up doing is, instead of just guessing what, what does what and rebuilding everything, created one new solution pulled in everything and normal project references just from my desk to be able to refactor this monster. And I had, you know, me, like I had two days of glorious fun to get everything up to the newest stuff.

Rick 
Current versions. So you then mean stuff, like for instance, table for Azure table storage, which is which used to be in cosmos. And now is done in Azure Data Tables.

Oscar 
Yeah well that is, of course, the one of the things that happened there. We, we had Table Storage, the old, old package, and we had the cosmos tables, table package. And after that, now it went to common data. And the same goes for storage. I think it's also like a blob storage, also the third or fourth iteration. The first one was still Windows Azure namespaces. And there was everything was there a bit and key fault gets played up, of course, with keys and secrets, yes, different clients these days. But yeah, it was a lot of fun to do. But be careful with those things. Because if those packages are not no longer supported, they're no longer patched. And if they might end up hitting an API that's no longer supported stuff might break, break in production.

Rick 
Well, it's actually something that I've seen with quite a few customers that they have all of these separate repos. But once every now and again, they need to pull in everything into the same solution, just like you said, to be able to refactor.

Oscar 
That's the best way and then once you get kind of stable, you can wrap them maybe reorganize them a bit, because maybe you don't need some packages anymore, or some dependencies.

Rick 
But you had some good old Visual Studio fun.

Oscar 
Yeah, definitely. And I love the refactoring options. Like for instance, if I put a semicolon behind the namespace, it removes the brackets for me automatically these days, those things. So I also upgraded to all the latest C# goodies. So it was a lot of fun.

Friend of the day - 03:13

Rick 
Nice. Oscar who’s our friend of the day?

Oscar 
Our friend of the day is Dennie Declercq.

Rick 
Dennie is Microsoft MVP developer technologies and has experience in accessibility with Microsoft technologies. In daily life Dennie is president and developer at DD soft, a nonprofit that connects IT to people who are less tech savvy. Then he invented technical solutions and systems to help people with their disabilities to participate in their daily life. Thanks to his autism, he's the right man at the right spot to contribute as a volunteer and function of people with disabilities. Welcome.

Oscar 
Welcome, Dennie.

Dennie 
Hello. Happy to be here.

Rick 
It's so good to have you on for this episode. Initially, we had you planned for a future one. But yeah, there were some unforeseen circumstances. So we asked if you could come today, and it was short notice, but you're here. So it's extra good to have you here.

Dennie 
Yeah, I was looking and I saw that you were in need for something. And I was still awake. And I say, okay, I want to help. And I want to talk about tech. Because, yeah, honestly, I want to talk about tech more and more. Because last week, I did some conferences, real ones, I mean, in person once again, and I'm over hyped with tech stuff again, more then some months ago, you know, sometimes you have increase and a decrease and then you have some really great content stuff that you are the hyped to try everything.

What got Dennie most hyped last weeks – 04:53

Rick 
And then what is it that got you most hype, hyped the last weeks?

Dennie 
In technology Blazor, Blazor and Azure Functions? And then yeah, the database. So I really loved your introduction. And before announcing me, you talked about Azure Data Table and the replacement of Azure Cosmos DB and all the stuff and KeyVault. So the, I really loved the modern way of building websites. And the combination of Azure functions as static web apps that you can use, Blazer with, you don't need to, but you can. And then as you suggest that you can really build a really affordable solutions. So and products for customers, for people with specific needs, if you call it customer your clients, so just use it. And, and you don't need to buy yourself a lot of money you spend, you don't need to spend a lot of money on the cloth, or on invoices to customers or in between people. It's crazy to see how affordable that you can develop stuff.

Oscar 
It is indeed crazy the stack and you mentioned Azure static web apps, which triggers Rick enormously, because he's the biggest fan in the world, I think.

Rick 
No, no, no but not the biggest fan in the world. Among those of like Stacy Cashmore and Dennie himself, but...

Dennie 
I'm a competitor for the biggest one, I'm really in the competition.

Rick 
I will, I will give it to you gladly, just as long as I can keep shouting about static web apps, because it's something that I'm really passionate about, especially with the new back end functionality that they introduced a couple of days ago, where you can now have API management or App Service or even container apps to be the back end that runs your API.

Dennie 
Read about it did but didn't play with it yet.

Rick 
Yeah, we played with it a little bit.

Oscar 
Yeah. But it's it has so much potential in it. You also mentioned Table Storage, like I'm the biggest fan there I think, or maybe also Dennie.

Rick 
I think that he's the biggest fan of everything.

Dennie 
No I'm the biggest fan of everything that you can make tech affordable to help more people, so I don't think everything.

Oscar 
But that's it, right? The Table Storage in combination with something like static web apps, and then, like, assumption plan Azure functions for a couple of bucks you normally spend on a coffee, you can host pretty serious solution for a month.

Dennie 
Yeah. Yeah. So I love this.

Where does Dennie’s personal mission come from - 07:16

Rick 
Yeah. So you talked about building solutions to help people and I think that's actually a really good thing that you do. But could you explain a bit more how that works? Because I think your company DDSoft has to do something with it.

Dennie 
Yeah, so I founded it as a nonprofit. And I found it myself in 2015. And I really wanted to, to make tech to help people, I get in touch in 2012. So three years before DDSoft, I get in touch with people with disabilities, people with learning disabilities. So also people by example, like that have a Down syndrome, who are not able to read or to use a computer on the normal way, or having more difficulties with it of course everything has a spectrum just as autism has a spectrum. And people who don't have autism is also a spectrum. Some people can read easy work, some people have more difficulties, some less difficulties. And some you're really surprised, what they do what they can use on the internet, but I find that so the internet is not accessible for a lot of people. And so that was in 2012. It really triggered me with people with severe, let's say cognitive disabilities. But is it going to get further and further if you look like no digital illiteracy is the word is growing more and more. It's also about people with elderly but also more and more people by example, with budgetary difficulties. Let's give an example some apps in Belgium that you needed in times of lockdowns and you couldn't have on a low cost smartphone. And that really makes me oh my god. The first step was it made me angered if I really said if digital exclusion so the opposite of inclusion, including having everyone joining the party joining the internet joining the atmosphere, enjoying life. So as does inclusion, everyone enjoying the opposite of exclusion. And if exclusion got more and more people got excluded. And then I was really angry because if digital exclusion can lead to physical exclusion by example, in some lockdowns for COVID you needed to show a pass on your phone if you were vaccinated or tested but for some phones were too low. And the app that you needed couldn't run, so that people weren't digital couldn't do anything, but weren't also allowed to go to the pub anymore. And that can be people who are fully vaccinated, just. Or tested just because their text is not working. And my first phase was anger. I was so angry. And my second step was okay, there's no there's not a solution being angered. Just go further, work more, work more, experiment more. And also talk more about it because I cannot change the world. I cannot make myself IT the whole world. But I want to inspire and show what's possible. And yeah.

Rick 
But I think that I think that's something you do, right. I mean, you also stand up in front of a crowd and talk about this kind of stuff.

Dennie 
Yeah, I do.

Rick 
And is it? Is it a personal mission? And if so, where does that mission come from? Because you're, you're really passionate about it.

Dennie 
It is a personal mission. And it all came because, honestly, so I founded a nonprofit myself, I do it as a volunteer. So I am a person on the autism spectrum. And a paid job is not possible for me, it is possible. But let's say, if I should do it, I will be really soaked each night I will be all my energy was totally screwed up, I will be having physical pain due to stress and tension. So that's not really possible. But the bad thing is, some people like example, on autistic need to do that, because they don't have a have a possibility to get the fee from the government. And then you also I get so that was the reason. And then I came one say I don't need to work as a job as a paid job. But I want to do something, it's not because you have a fee from the government, let's say that got that my mission is to be to game at night until night and not sleeping a day and gaming each night. And I started it as a place to work as a volunteer in a place that was a coaching center and Austin Itaca. I can call them because I'm still there but only half a day in the week anymore. And I started three halve a days in the week. So typical halve a day. And that's a place that people with disability, so learning disabilities, cognitive disabilities. And they are so that they even have more difficulties than me way more, or digital. And I really get passionate about it, I get pumped about it. I sell possibilities. So it's a combination of two things. First of all, I saw the need that it was definitely. But when I try to apply for the paid job, they never gave me a job as a developer. I always needed to try on jobs where I didn't fit in, by example, working as a line worker in a fabric for people with disabilities. And then just by example, let my hand fold the boxes. Nothing against people doing that because I'm for inclusion and I'm hating labels and boxes. So people who do that, and are happy with that. Okay, great job it's also needed. But I was not happy with that. Because if I do simple tasks, with my head then my brain takes me to everywhere but especially not to were I want to be.

Rick 
Yeah your focus goes all...

Dennie 
To bad thoughts yes, to really bad things.

Rick 
So your focus goes all over the place?

Dennie 
To the darkest thoughts.

Rick 
Okay.

Dennie 
And then I became unhappy. So but as a volunteer they gave me they believed in me and they gave me possibilities to grow. So at Ithaca, I made tech solutions and total solutions for the clients. I did great stuff. And then even the trust in myself I was back because after years of trying to say I can develop I can program software but nobody sees it. And nobody gives you the possibility to do it as a paid job. People start to people don't believe in you. And then there is a point unfortunately, when you start to disbelieve in yourself and I had that honestly. No, you know me all from the man of dreaming is believing on Twitter. But there were times before that. And honestly, that was Ithaca that gave everything back. They let me as their software developer for people with disabilities solutions there. The trust in myself was stronger than ever then I founded my own nonprofit. I then I say I want to be a confident speaker too, because I can show that the world. And everyone saying you're kidding, that will not work. That's only for people with a paid job. You are not that smart enough. They say it will not work. And I started to fill in colorful papers and I just say it will work I believed it as I said, dreaming is believing. If you really want to be able to do something and you are passionate to, to get to reach that goal you will reach it and then I was selected for the first international conference that for me that was directly the other side of the world. It was in Sydney in Australia. Most of the developers start at user groups really close by. Just I wasn't I wasn't found out I wasn't famous I was in the world see nothing. I honestly yeah, I came from zero to hero sometimes. I say I don't say I'm a hero but know what I mean. Sometimes you need a bit more. Not to be too proud of yourself, but I came really from zero to where I'm right now. But I just filled in. So let's say killer call for paper abstracts. And I did two talks, I talked about Xamarin, an actual people disabilities, learning disabilities. And I gave a whole just an explanation or just a full talk about inclusion. The talk is still online, of course, I changed my presenting status changed and even my shape, but it was a talk of inclusion. And it was all about how software can enable inclusion for people with disabilities and showing a world to developers. Because before t2012, I also didn't know the world of people with down syndrome by example, or different types of quality disabilities, that all started in Itaca. And I wanted to show this to the world to developers. And I'm still, still know, my dad said, okay, I enjoy the TED Dennie, you know, that will be a once in a lifetime. And I say to him, no, no, that will be my future that will be my career. And he said, yeah, just one time enjoy. And after NDC, Sydney, it was that was in August, then it was 2018, NDC, London, and few more, and then 19. And until 2020 until March 2020. I had my last in person conferences. I stick to it on the virtual conferences. It wasn't the same. For me, energy is really important. Not only inspiring people, but I need to energy back inspiration back. So the virtual conference wasn't the same energy. I really had some great feedback, but my feeling wasn't as good. But I say I will stick to it. Because after the lockdowns, I need to be there again. I know since, since last September, I already spoke at more than six in person conferences. Oh, wow. That's a lot.

Oscar 
What an energy this man has.

Becoming an Microsoft MVP – 16:54

Rick 
Yeah. But then the cool thing is Dannie, I mean, you've had quite a few, not maybe setbacks, but at least problems in getting the right belief that you could make it where you are right now. But now, you are a Microsoft MVP for the fourth year. So you've been? I mean, that means that you do a lot for the community, right? Because that's, that's how you become an MVP by doing a lot for the community. Did you find that extra rewarding or as an extra push to I need to keep doing this because I'm apparently on the right track.

Dennie 
Honestly, I'm very honest about it, I even wrote a blog post about it before it was on the Microsoft community blocks. I think the Microsoft people and IT and the voice of IT. Getting the MVP is the biggest reward I ever had in my life as a people without a paid job. And even the nonprofit is great. But and speaking is great. But people will always for me or see it as a once in a lifetime or multiple ones in the lifetime might be once in the lifetimes. And a lot can be possible, but still, it's not a title. It's not an achievement. And then we can say I'm a Microsoft MVP. As a child, I always wanted I dreamed about working for Microsoft. So as a paid employee, and I still know, I really, I was really dropped in the community embodied me as an attendee. And the first time I saw Microsoft MVPs, I all didn't know all the stuff. And I thought that were people working for Microsoft, and I only learned this after let's say, a year or a bit more. That Microsoft MVPs were not Microsoft employees. I then I My God, and then I really was. I started tend to doze in them. The end of 2018, the start of 19 I say, okay, my next goal is not only speaking at conferences as Dennie Declercq from DDSoft but I need to be a Microsoft MVP.

Using Blazor because it reduces context switching – 19:00

Rick 
One of the things that I think is really interesting in the information that you sent me or sent us is the fact that blazer helps you as a person with autism, because it reduces context switching. How does that work? And how does blazer or for you work as a tech?

Dennie 
Okay, simply, we started C#, I always was a .NET developer. Really in the beginning it was .NET. But I, I changed quite fast to, to C#. And for me, C# is completely different than JavaScript. And a lot of people say the difference isn't that big and theoretically, if you look at the syntax that big it isn't, but a feeling just for me, as a person with autism just little changes or differences, let's say very little differences can have a huge impact of the feeling. So and I did already development, back end development. And even I call it, I just call it service by front end. By example, make the front end. But on the asp by example, you program all the front end just in C# with components, so without JavaScript at all. And then but I never really had the big the greatest front end experiences because my feeling my JavaScript wasn't there and isn't there. And I think I'll never be there. Honestly, it's just a personal feeling. I have nothing against JavaScript, I just don't have the feeling and that's the context for me a whole other context. C#, and JavaScript. And then Blazer being able to build also, the latest and greatest possibilities in front end, with front end stuff without your, well known C#, yeah, that has no context switch anymore is just, if you just amazing, you can just mix some really, really simple HTML tags. And all the rest is placed in C#.

Oscar 
And if you look at implementing blazer, of course, you have, like also C# there. And that prevents context switching. But the rest of the tooling around it is helping you to be more productive than anything else.

Dennie 
Yeah, definitely. I, I can remember, I don't know if I can say this, we will see I can remember in the beginning, working with Xamarin. Let's say right now building something in Blazer and even refreshing everything and do little UI updates and metadata reload, and just you click on it, something and you see it, you don't need to hope that all the bills are working. Can you see it? And it works? And it should be good, right? No, but more we do, and it should be it always, it should always be in beta Xamarin, but I never had the most expensive devices to work with. And it's also making a difference. But normal basically it doesn't, it doesn't depend on your own infrastructure anymore. You can make a very, very cheap, but quite normal let's say, just consumer device. You can build everything I guess. For other stuff you don't need to just a customer. A consumer device. Oh, yeah. And it's blazing fast.

Rick 
Yeah, no. And then if you need more power, you can always go for instant GitHub Code Spaces. And run it there.

Dennie 
Yeah awesome! Yeah, I am a big fan of everything that means developing, more affordable, more accessible and more affordable, but affordable is just a part of accessible if you ask me. Yeah, and then with code spaces if you need to do yes, it's amazing. Of course, I also played with it's amazing.

Oscar 
Have you ever seen the on Build day demoed it, Def box? That is I think more of a virtual desktop in, in Azure only then...

Rick 
Completely targeting developers.

Oscar 
Yeah, with a full Visual Studio and stuff like yeah, a thing you couldn't do in code spaces.

Dennie 
Yeah, I saw it. Yes.

Oscar 
Yeah. This to me, I scribed for the preview, but I'm not invited in yet.

Rick 
Not yet. You'll get there yet.

Oscar 
It saves a lot of you're talking about the cost of devices, but I'm working as a consultant and having multiple clients and each their own security stack and they want you in their domain or whatever. I'm not going to carry a carry around like five or six devices, which are one expensive and B they will be old in three years. Like, yes, these kinds of solutions are perfect to, on one hand onboard new employees, and on the other hand, be able to conduct switch to the next project or legacy project that they did a long time ago.

Dennie 
It's amazing.

Totally random question – 23:45

Rick 
It is. Oscar, do you know what time it is?

Oscar 
Is it time for a totally random question?

Rick 
It is time for a totally random question.

Oscar 
Dannie, what is your favorite non tech way to spend your time?

Dennie 
Oh, I love everything. Spirituality and traveling. Spirituality. It can be meditation, it can be some yoga. It can be going to the spa some people call it spirituality. Some people don't call it spirituality, and then traveling seeing the world.

Rick 
And do you ever combine the two like you go to locations where spirituality is a big thing?

Dennie 
I'm giving a conference talk saying this that I hate labels and putting everything into labels like a business travel and free time travel is a different thing. No, it's all the same. So I combined as much as possible. Yeah, of course.

Rick 
Yeah, of course. But then you also...

Oscar 
He's efficient.

Rick 
Yeah, he's efficient like that. But that's a good thing. So you call it spirituality or some might call it mindfulness or something like that.

Dennie 
It's all a how you call it. You need to give the beast a name.

Rick 
yes. True. Yeah. Now if you look at tech conferences, I think in the past, there wasn't a lot of attention to these kinds of things. Are you also seeing a shift where there is more room for stuff like this on tech conferences, or?

Dennie 
I don't say it's mindfulness, but I definitely see more and more about mental health. I don't call it the same, but maybe some people call it the same. And I'll say, yes. Mental Health talks about mental health, even some talks about if I really started in 2017, speak at conferences. There were rarely. Rarely that it happened that there was a full track dedicated to social stuff of people's stuff. And now you see more than more popping, and I love it. Yeah. So mental health, openness, vulnerability. Just say for example, about struggles, mental struggles, people talking about stress, but also boats, best practices in life. Yeah. More and more. And I think it's really needed that it came and finally it's there.

Rick 
Yeah. I'm not really sure if it's there enough already. But at least it's getting some room.

Oscar 
We're getting somewhere like a decade ago, we might have an hour dedicated once in our completely curriculum, to soft skills, which like is really broad, but like it's, it's people skills and finding yourself and planning and it's so important because in the end, it's communication in his work.

Dennie 
Like by example, the keynote that Donna Sarkar gave at Scotty summit in June. That was beautiful mental health, it was one of the best keynotes I ever saw.

The invention of technical solutions to help people with disabilities – 26:50

Rick 
I think Donna is also somebody who's really active in I think everything that has to do with diversity and inclusion and, and mental health. So I think if anybody needs to do a keynote like that, probably she's one of our best guesses. In your bio, it says that you invent the technical solutions and systems to help people with disabilities to participate in their daily life. Is that what you meant when you talked earlier about also having solutions for people with less heavy hardware? Is there something else that you've invented or built to enable people to participate more easily?

Dennie 
I invented the system, I didn't go out in a product, unfortunately, or not yet. But it was a combination. It's a methodology for uses for people with learning disabilities. And it's a combination of stuff, by example, I really love and to me is the holy grail of three and that is making differences is like, like if you if you have communication. So you have information on the internet, you show communication, you show the work. So within text, then you show the image, for example, yeah, just a picture of a pictographs. And then also you use tack to speech. So in my Xamarin application, I made were all the same sort of work. And the picture of the, the thing that your communicating about, and I'm getting a load at test time, I'm working on the same, but Blazic. And just listen, in Blazer with static web apps, and then Azure functions, and most of cognitive services, then you can implement speech all in your web browser, with out people need to install anything. And this all demoed in a conference talk that I gave on it's called The Future of accessibility, with Blazer and Microsoft Cognitive Services, you can find it or you can check the link.

Rick 
Yeah, we will, we will share the link in the episode description, because I think that might be interesting for people to have a look at that one.

Dennie 
Yeah, but at this time, to be honest, there are two big differences. But there's first of time making the tech work just the tech on your local device or for yourself. And then you can show it at conferences, and it works perfectly. But it isn't scalable or usable. Because for security reasons and scalability. And I always I still need to learn a lot of stuff to make it really scalable, sustainable in a way that it will work and that people don't hack the environment and don't get too much builds. So really playing with it and setting it up and showing it working on your local device is not the same as rolling it out. And that is and always was be one of my difficulties and still so I'm still working on it. And I really dream about it. And it's not only talking about it and inspire going and I'm building it really as a book, prototype or proof of concept, but really getting dwelling. But honestly, I don't know if it's has to be me. I think the world needs the people with disabilities need to have all the software. But if I build it or other people build it that are inspired from my conference talks. Oh, we build it, but other people in the open. It's more important that people have all the tools than that I build it that's the reason that I always talked very fast and speaking about it and showing it at conferences. And if people have time they can do it their self and make it better. Is not that I just say I wait and then after five years, I publish it. And I hope to getting rich. No, I'm not. I don't want to be.

Oscar 
It's not about that, it's making the world just a tiny bit better.

Dennie 
Yeah.

Rick 
So is there is there a place people can go if they want to help or if they want to know how this works, and then maybe see if they can assist in it.

Dennie 
There are a lot of recordings, I can check them on internet, on the YouTube, and all talks, you can find it with my Twitter handle or my contact details, so they can contact me. And of course, there is also a link to my GitHub. But not everything is in a public key pool because of credential stuff. And I need to still need to learn about keeping the credential separated from my environments. So as long as I need to learn that I keep it private, because I don't want to be hacked too. Sometimes even people with good intention can be hacked, I need to prevent this. But definitely, if they search me type in Dennie Declercq and my example on YouTube, and then my talks and there's my email address my Twitter handle, a lot of stuff. And I said also my GitHub. Not everything is public for those reasons.

Oscar 
Well, I think in this world, or at least in my surroundings, there are a lot more people that in the end can implement something than having a great idea, because that is really special. You need to definitely concentrate on that if that is the thing you're good at.

The biggest misconception about being in tech with a disability - 31:54

Rick 
Yeah, I totally agree. Dennie, as a last question, what is the biggest misconception about being in tech with well, be it a disability or being on the autism spectrum? What's the biggest misconception that we need to shake?

Dennie 
I just think people say, all developers, or all autistic people, the best thing is being developer and having programming, it will not be difficult, let's say one of it's not only one misconception, just the whole autism spectrum is way too low know. Too way, too unknown way too much people think that they know what you're talking about if they talk about autism, or people with autism, but they don't know what they're talking about. I think there should be real broaden education on autism. And if you by example, look to the media to your television, if they do get reportage, report about autism, there's always a weird scenario or it's people who was really, really, really deep disabled, and is at the edge of an institution. Or it is a super talent in one thing, but no life on all spaces. So always the boats, the works, I just, but there's so much in between. And there will be more and more people receiving the autism diagnosis, because a lot of people need to hide the need to cooperate. But sometimes they fail, and then they get burned out. And then they get more examination. And then they knew there was always something, I just call it in some of the artwork that I'm writing for new conferences, already new talks people are just struggling more to get the job done than others. And that is a huge standard that can be people with autism, not only people with autism.

Rick 
I think that's, that might be an issue across the board since we all have all types of influences during the day that either help us or hinder us. This just happens to have a name or a label. But we're not into labels. So as far as that's concerned, let's just forget about the label and see what we can do on a personal level to help people right.

Dennie 
Yeah, it's just how to get out labeling damage. Because what do you have to do at the label? If you don't, you need to look at the people, I really help the people what's best for them. I always talked, I always say start with the quality of life of the people if it's customer, is it your employer, is your both of or is it just yourself, the quality of life. And to reach quality of life. You really need to look into the people look to the people and have the conversation and really be an intersect and triggering it. What will make your day better. What will make your colleague better what will make your life better and give it and then the labor is not needed. Why is it needed? because he's autistic, oh, he has a oh, he has a no the woman but a jealous because his friend, as a woman have a boyfriend or you know, relationship or toddler stuff. There are a lot of reasons to be less happy or unhappy but just what can we do to make the person or to make you feeling better, and then automatically or gonna say as a joke automagically, the person will be more productive.

Closing – 35:27

Rick 
I think that's spoken very nicely. Is there anything that we need to get back to or that you would like to add? Or that we maybe haven't discussed that you really missed?

Dennie 
Just Blazor, Blazor, Blazor and static web apps and functions and a low cost development and affordable tech solutions and, and disabilities and accessibility.

Rick 
And I think we touched upon all of those. Thank you very much. As far as I'm concerned, you're an inspiration on how we can also look at our community and people. And not only people within the community, but people in general, and how we can help them even more. So thank you for that awesome message.

Oscar 
Yeah, I'm completely energized from your...

Rick 
From your energy.

Oscar 
From your energy, actually.

Rick 
Thank you very much Dennie.

Oscar 
Thank you.

Dennie 
Thank you.

Rick 
Thank you for listening to Betatalks the podcasts, we publish a new episode every two weeks.

Oscar 
You can find us on all the major streaming platforms like Spotify and iTunes.

Rick 
See you next time.

Oscar 
Bye.